How can Artists Process Loss Through their Art? Dante, Vavara and Francesca Share Their Stories

In this engaging episode, Charuka Arora sits down with three incredible women from the art world: Francesca, Dante M. Pirouz, and Varvara. They share their unique journeys, insights, and experiences, making this a must-listen for artists and art enthusiasts alike.

Francesca introduces herself as an eco-artivist, explaining her transition from being a solicitor to a fine arts mosaic artist. She talks about her commitment to sustainability and how she uses waste materials to create beautiful art. Francesca shares her inspiring projects with corporations, where she turns their waste into stunning office artwork. Her story highlights the importance of promoting environmental awareness through creative means.

Dante shares her fascinating journey of finding her artistic voice. Growing up in a family of artists, she discusses how her upbringing influenced her path. Dante talks about the personal experiences and losses that have shaped her work and identity as an artist. Her insights into self-discovery and creative expression are both relatable and motivating for listeners.

Varvara provides a deep dive into the challenges and triumphs faced by women in the art world. She talks about her experiences as a female artist and emphasizes the need for greater representation and recognition. Varvara shares her creative process and the themes she explores in her work, offering valuable advice for aspiring female artists.

Overall, Francesca, Dante, and Varvara explore common themes in their work, such as sustainability and women’s representation in art. They share their thoughts on the future of women in the art industry and the importance of community and support among female artists. Their collective insights provide a rich and empowering perspective on art and creativity.

Charuka wraps up the episode by thanking the guests and encouraging listeners to explore the book “Art and Women” to learn more about these inspiring artists and their work.

This episode is filled with personal stories, valuable insights, and practical advice, making it a powerful resource for anyone interested in art and the experiences of women artists.

Timestamp	Summary

00:00.52 

Charuka Arora 

Here we go. Hey, you guys. Welcome back to the Arts to Hearts podcast. I have the unusual, but the usual art and women, but specifically today we are going to talk to the amazing artists from a new book, Art and Women. I have three talented artists from different time zones in different countries, Francesca, Dante and Varvara. Welcome to the podcast. 

00:24.36 

Francesca 

Thank you. 

00:25.29 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Hello. 

00:25.39 

Varvara 

Thank you. 

00:26.71 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Thank you. 

00:28.21 

Charuka Arora 

Thank you, ladies. A special mention and thank you to Dante who is also joining us right now at 3.30am. So I really appreciate this and I hope all our listeners do appreciate listening to your stories and knowing what you know and sharing your work with us. 

00:45.77 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

That’s great. 

00:47.86 

Charuka Arora 

Perfect. Francesca, let’s start shrimming you. Would you want to introduce yourself, who you are? 

00:51.51 

Francesca 

so 

00:53.30 

Charuka Arora 

And I love your chirpiness. 

00:54.24 

Francesca 

Yes. 

00:54.89 

Charuka Arora 

Let’s set the tone right. 

00:57.71 

Francesca 

Yes, so hi everyone. So I am Francesca and I’m from the UK though I’m originally from Italy and I call myself an eco-artivist because really art is just the last step of what I do. 

01:00.39 

Charuka Arora 

Thank you. 

01:09.62 

Francesca 

I try to live sustainably in everything I do. Obviously I’m vegan, I only wear secondhand, I only use renewable energy. um Every, I mean, in every single thing, I always try to find the most sustainable way to do it. And of course it’s really, really hard and quite, you know, it’s ah it’s it’s it’s a dream really, and that you want to, you strive to obtain, but will probably will never do because just by, you know, the way we live um and by being a human nowadays, it’s really, really hard to be sustainable. 

01:29.53 

Varvara 

Now. 

01:41.02 

Francesca 

Apparently we use, ah you know, twice as much globally sources that are sustainable, 

01:45.13 

Varvara 

all 

01:47.13 

Francesca 

Yeah, untrue. I mean, it’s really worrying. Anyway, so what I do in art anyway is that i yeah i I used to be a solicitor. I see the solicitor. And I then retrained in what I should have been all the time. 

02:00.95 

Charuka Arora 

Wow. 

02:02.86 

Francesca 

I mean, you know, fine arts, but I chose mosaic in fine arts because I just found this huge passion for it. um And so, and then I started just replacing the tiles with waste, really, which is something that mosaics already do somehow because they use a lot of broken crockery, for example. 

02:18.21 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

02:19.68 

Francesca 

um You know, and they tried, and that’s what the Romans did as well, they reused as much as possible, you know, even in broken vases and crockery, they did. 

02:20.38 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

02:27.37 

Francesca 

But I wanted to go a step further as well, ah because of course, you know, even marble, which I adore, is actually a prime resource that we are just keep on plundering from earth. So I just waste and as much of as unrecyclable waste as I can regardless of the fact that I think that recycling is not the answer because it’s just it’s really close to you know how to close the cycle. 

02:36.97 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

02:50.89 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

02:51.22 

Francesca 

The only thing that’s simply recyclable really is metal and maybe glass, but glass also has to you know be reworked in what it used to be. but um And so plastic is fantastic actually, if I can use it, but you know there’s hundreds of different kinds of plastic. which is also the reason why most of it is unrecyclable. And end it actually requires a lot of thinking on your feet because every plastic reacts differently to different adhesives. 

03:17.22 

Varvara 

Thank you. 

03:20.33 

Francesca 

And you know, I try to be eco-friendly in adhesives too, so that’s another step I could use, you know, 

03:23.89 

Charuka Arora 

That’s really all. 

03:25.30 

Francesca 

or resins that you find or special glues but I don’t want to because that’s another way of polluting making it even worse you know. um So it’s ever even in this everything I try to do is try to be ah sustainable and eco-friendly and it’s funny because I started using it simply replacing you know my material with it and ah for other messages that I will be sending you know you know we all go through phases and each phase you know you you feel like that’s where you want to represent that’s where you are you know so I mean to understand and or communicate and but at the end I realized that people didn’t realize that it was rubbish most of the time and when they did that was that was the only thing they would focus on and so I just thought you know what I’m just gonna focus on this then so sustainability now is my message in everything I do even in the piece itself 

04:16.29 

Francesca 

um So yeah, it’s a but for example, see that one is made with Nescafe or pods or other coffee pods, which usually don’t use because they are recycled and they’re making aluminium as well and aluminium is completely recyclable. 

04:26.69 

Charuka Arora 

okay 

04:32.67 

Francesca 

not everything actually but anyway so this is i’m just doing a few pieces with us and i feel like i’m you know overstepping my uh my sustainability boundary but i am loving it otherwise the one thing i it’s a bit of a mess at the moment my studio but i do have a few pieces 

04:43.15 

Charuka Arora 

time so black it also looked wonderful from yeah 

04:52.35 

Charuka Arora 

We will take us a round once we circle back. 

04:56.45 

Francesca 

Oh, really? Oh, no, I didn’t know. 

04:58.01 

Charuka Arora 

and 

04:58.37 

Francesca 

Maybe I’ll just… 

05:00.01 

Charuka Arora 

We can do that. I like that in there. 

05:02.51 

Francesca 

So, no. 

05:04.65 

Charuka Arora 

I’m coming back to you. 

05:06.50 

Francesca 

And no, no, and also, sorry, one quarter of my time, I do, I spend on pro bono work, if I can, with ah schools, institutions. And the one thing I found out, sorry, and then I’m finished. Tell me if I’m over, you know, ah going over my limit. But basically what I want to do is communicate the urgency that I feel to change our ways, especially in this case and what regards, you know, so disposable living. um And so, ah when I was thinking, how do I reach the highest number of people in the most effective way, you know, in the minimum time possible, I just thought, you know, you think of everyone, obviously, individual to individual is always the best, because you get lots of ideas too, you know, it’s stimulating, everyone has got different ideas, different points of view. 

05:31.99 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

05:50.17 

Francesca 

And, you know, that’s how you actually get to interact with each other and change things then and then. but I thought corporations would be the way, also having my you know background in the city. I feel still comfortable in that environment, though I don’t feel I belong. but um 

06:08.04 

Charuka Arora 

ah 

06:08.63 

Francesca 

So I just thought, okay, fair enough. I’ll just get in there, even through this green washing tick that they have at the moment, right? Because that’s what it is most of the time, unfortunately still. And and I will work my magic within. And so what I do is I take their own rubbish and make artwork for their office with it. But it’s more than that, because of course, it’s the stuff that has to collect. 

06:26.41 

Charuka Arora 

Wonderful. Wow. 

06:30.82 

Francesca 

the items and so that’s when the magic comes in you know it’s they have a force to stop and look at what they usually don’t even you know give us first thought and just want to get rid of as soon as possible and treat it as a treasure because they have to actually put it on the side for me 

06:34.52 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

06:39.43 

Charuka Arora 

and 

06:41.84 

Charuka Arora 

Fresh pleasure. 

06:46.46 

Francesca 

and then they have the sense of ownership you know and to this feet on this piece that they have on the wall and also it is the most um immediate way they have to show their commitment to sustainability to the client and it’s also um ah I’m told a wonderful icebreaker so there’s some clients moving from the corridors to the main boardroom you know they’re seen first from whoever connects but the fact 

06:49.40 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

06:57.49 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

07:01.87 

Charuka Arora 

all 

07:08.22 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

07:09.53 

Francesca 

So it’s it’s I enter through the Green Washington, but it’s more than that, because usually I do find people who actually care once I’m in there. And you know you do get to talk to people. 

07:17.90 

Charuka Arora 

And sister, we’ll make you wind up a little bit so that we can keep the conversation flowing. 

07:23.01 

Francesca 

Yes, yes, yes. OK, I’ll finish it basically. But anyway, um so they just don’t know how to get the conversation started, you know, or with their own stuff on a personal level. 

07:29.54 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

07:32.21 

Francesca 

And I create connections that last forever afterwards, which is really good. 

07:34.31 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Bye. 

07:34.89 

Charuka Arora 

and I think that’s very impactful. 

07:36.30 

Francesca 

i 

07:36.41 

Charuka Arora 

I think when they have something that that comes from them and it becomes transforms into something, it’s also a very positive way of building that connection and being conscious of um what we’re consuming. 

07:37.20 

Francesca 

well 

07:49.49 

Charuka Arora 

And it’s right it’s like a reminder every day of you know what we’ve done and what it can happen for once. But we also have to be watchful of how our consumption is going. 

07:59.58 

Francesca 

yeah so thank you 

08:00.81 

Charuka Arora 

What about Mudante? 

08:00.95 

Francesca 

i would 

08:04.19 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yes, so I am and a painter. I am based in Michigan. So I am in the Midwest of the United States. ah And I actually, this has been a journey to discover the creative side of my identity, because I come from a family of creatives. And as a child, as a young person, I’ve actually vowed that I would not be a creative person, because yeah was I was anti creative, because 

08:24.04 

Charuka Arora 

okay 

08:24.43 

Francesca 

Yes, thank you. We do. 

08:28.51 

Charuka Arora 

my green min Why so? 

08:33.59 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

My mom was a a makeup artist and my dad was an actor. 

08:37.54 

Charuka Arora 

Okay. 

08:39.73 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

um I grew up in California and we grew up and two artists. 

08:39.88 

Charuka Arora 

Okay. 

08:44.20 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

It was a struggle to survive. ah My dad, he was an actor model. 

08:47.39 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

08:49.05 

Francesca 

I 

08:50.24 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

He you know worked as hard as he could. 

08:51.86 

Charuka Arora 

I’m 

08:52.24 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

He actually just passed away about a month ago. 

08:52.51 

Francesca 

love that. 

08:54.76 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

My mom passed away about 10 years ago. 

08:55.02 

Charuka Arora 

so sorry. 

08:57.95 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And um you know when you um are living with working starving artists, 

09:00.87 

Charuka Arora 

Lord. 

09:05.10 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

who kind of bought you know they were bohemian they were from the 60s they bought into the California subculture of how artists lived and for as a young person it was it was a challenge it was a struggle so I always surround it surprisingly I seem to surround myself with artists my parents were artists my grandparents were more handicrafts artists I had my African-American grandmother 

09:13.27 

Varvara 

Thank you. 

09:28.73 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

was into fabrics and and making things from scratch and reclaiming a lot of, ah you know, kind of lost items, the recycled items and making them into something beautiful. My other grandmother was in Germany and she knew a lot of handicrafts and taught me all of those skills. But um my best friend is a fine artist. She has her MFA. 

09:49.22 

Francesca 

Thank you. 

09:49.51 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

My husband is a graphic designer. He went to art school. 

09:52.08 

Charuka Arora 

Oh, wow. You have. 

09:53.21 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, so I live with artists everywhere. 

09:53.44 

Charuka Arora 

How are you? You’re in it. Yes. ah 

09:59.98 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And so I always, um, so I was much more, I had a corporate career, like Francesca said, you know, I did kind of a more traditional route. 

10:03.81 

Charuka Arora 

OK. 

10:07.80 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

I thought, you know, I’m going to do something that fits into the mold of, of maybe what is more traditional and and expected. and i all 

10:15.64 

Charuka Arora 

And also more sustainable maybe because I think when you’re surrounded by artists and you saw that and you know my instinct is to you know find more sustainable like financially sustainable also. 

10:25.52 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Absolutely. I just thought it was the right responsible way to go. 

10:28.50 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

10:28.85 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

I was smart. I was good in school. I got multiple degrees. I ended up getting a PhD and at every stage of my career, I struggled with that. And I think a lot of artists talk about this, this feeling that something else is in your path. 

10:44.98 

Charuka Arora 

is that 

10:46.06 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

There’s something else that you’re meant to do. 

10:46.58 

Charuka Arora 

have. 

10:47.82 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

So that feeling never, ever left. My children are artists. My daughter is extremely creative. 

10:52.77 

Francesca 

but 

10:53.68 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And so she completely has pushed me to say, mom, you’ve got to kind of do what is right for you. So um when my mother died about 10 years ago, and then my grandmother’s passed away as well, really close in kind of a close period of time, I just thought, you know, they that was something they always dreamt of doing, which was to have the free time and the resources to be able to create something. My mom hated one painting. um And, you know, she just couldn’t carve out any more time. So I decided that I would use that as a way to channel that loss and grief. 

11:26.52 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Whether my friends who are artists loved it or not, right? 

11:26.46 

Charuka Arora 

Hmm Yeah Yeah I 

11:30.37 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Because artists can be very critical of one another. So my husband is a little bit of the critic. 

11:32.59 

Francesca 

Yes. 

11:34.47 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

I just thought, you know what? I’m going to really channel the voice of these women in my life. 

11:35.68 

Varvara 

Thank you. 

11:39.43 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Block out all the negative voices. And that’s been my my path for the last, I’d say, you know, a couple yeah couple of years, is to try to anchor into this this creative voice that I never really knew I had. 

11:48.44 

Charuka Arora 

love that 

11:55.32 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And it has been exciting because, yeah. 

11:55.89 

Charuka Arora 

you know what I also you while you’re saying this it’s also because I think um you also have that freedom now because um creating from a place of survival versus creating from a place of feeling safe and secure is not something a lot of artists can have and like you know a lot of times we have to take up a job and then um you know if we have we know that we can provide for ourselves so there’s somebody who’s there or then you know in a way in a way where we’ve had previous careers and now you’ve chosen this path in life where you don’t have to 

12:28.92 

Charuka Arora 

always worry about everything else. So it really also helps you from that blockage of what you’d seen around yourself. I think it’s also like how you rework for yourself and make sure you were not doing the same thing that you didn’t want to go with. 

12:42.98 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, so that’s a little bit about me. 

12:46.98 

Charuka Arora 

Wonderful, school wonderful. I’m coming back to you again. Hi, Vaira. 

12:51.54 

Varvara 

Hi. 

12:52.35 

Charuka Arora 

Let’s hear about you. 

12:54.56 

Varvara 

So my name is Varvara, and I’m originally from Russia, Moscow, but I spent the last two years in immigration, one year in Georgia, one year in Montenegro. And now I came back to Moscow because I needed to see my grandma, who is also passed away like a week ago. 

13:05.20 

Charuka Arora 

Oh. 

13:13.14 

Varvara 

yeah And I’m still having all this. 

13:15.17 

Francesca 

Sorry. 

13:18.44 

Varvara 

I’m back to my old place, and it’s strange you know and um yeah as an artist I usually do social art I usually work with some trauma ah topics as violence and and mean i’m I’m also like really into feminism and the one of the topic one of the biggest topics of my art practice is ecological agenda and I do 

13:44.07 

Charuka Arora 

Okay. 

13:46.27 

Varvara 

if installation from worn cloths. I usually the smallest girl with the biggest work like 20 meters, 4 meters, this is my size. yeah and I take the cloths that people don’t really need anymore and I create the artwork from that and after that yeah it people can still worn it so it’s completely recyclable and reusable so it’s not very important 

13:57.17 

Francesca 

and 

13:58.58 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

14:11.43 

Francesca 

That’s amazing. Well done. I love it. Sorry. but Yes. 

14:15.15 

Charuka Arora 

One home, you’re welcome to the conversation. 

14:18.31 

Varvara 

Thank you. For me, it’s very important not to just create art, but after my work is done, it still can live. 

14:19.64 

Francesca 

ah 

14:25.99 

Varvara 

So, yeah. 

14:26.43 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

14:26.91 

Varvara 

And um now I have my exhibition in Moscow about the fear and I created the cages in shape of the human with the strings like food. Because you know all of this that’s happening now in my country. So the fear is quite relevant topic in in for my people and there now. And I can’t say everything that I want there, but I can say some things. And theory is one of the topics. 

14:55.36 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

14:56.36 

Varvara 

All we are possessing so strongly and this cage is in shape of human body that people can’t move. 

14:59.49 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

15:05.73 

Varvara 

I think they’re quite relevant for for for now, for this period of life. And um and also I have two kids. 

15:15.74 

Charuka Arora 

Oh, wow. 

15:16.36 

Francesca 

and then we do yeah 

15:18.65 

Varvara 

Yeah, they were 10 years and three years. 

15:19.08 

Francesca 

and they’re the oh 

15:22.04 

Charuka Arora 

So they’re back with you tomorrow. 

15:24.40 

Varvara 

Yeah, yeah, they needed to see their their family as well. 

15:28.58 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

15:29.64 

Varvara 

Grandmoms, this is important to to kids to know their grandparents and for my kids, their grand grandparents also, like they saw them. 

15:30.39 

Charuka Arora 

wonderful 

15:35.01 

Francesca 

And then 

15:42.47 

Varvara 

And I think this really is a strong and important connection to have. 

15:44.05 

Francesca 

we do, yeah? 

15:46.31 

Francesca 

And then… 

15:47.55 

Varvara 

and not to forget about that. 

15:48.51 

Charuka Arora 

absolutely absolutely thank you three of you thank you so much for sharing about you your work your practice you know um i always say this on the podcast that art and women these are two very very intimate experiences that really matter to me and that is why as astuha’s project also we’re hyper focused on women and even as my own self as an artist 

15:50.40 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. Yeah. 

15:50.74 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

16:10.57 

Charuka Arora 

um like Dante you said I also lost my mom three years ago and since then my work has been so much about like it’s like when you lose something with your own creative expression like you said Barbara like you know the trauma sometimes we have we’re trying to bring it back to us trying to hold on to it and I think art is such a strong medium for us to be able to ah hold something that we truly believe in be it Francisco you know how ah we are conscious of what we are making, how we are concerned about the environment, the future of our children, everything. I want to ask this, this could be a little more weak question but I really want to dive into this because I do, at least I feel that my own experience as a woman and why we did art and women as a group was exploring 

17:01.13 

Charuka Arora 

different relationships of art and women and how we all like how being a woman has impacted who we are as artists and the message in the story and what we have to say. I want to hear from you how your role as women today so far has impacted you as artist and continue that conversation and You know, if there’s something that you want other women also to, you know, be a part of or something more. I mean, I hope I’m clear. 

17:32.33 

Charuka Arora 

I know it’s not just the specific, but just understanding our relationships of how we’re four different women and their four different perspectives and our art and why the messages we are putting out and what matters to us. 

17:33.93 

Francesca 

Yeah. Yeah. 

17:45.80 

Charuka Arora 

I really want to dive into that. 

17:49.76 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Who should go first? 

17:50.09 

Francesca 

but Yeah. 

17:50.66 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. Oh, i yeah, I’ll jump in. So, you know, for me, one of the things that I love about not just creating my own art, but also seeing other artists and the and the work that they produce is 

17:53.77 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

18:05.57 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

for It seems, you know, when you look at, for example, just a two-dimensional painting, it’s really essentially almost an optical illusion. it is It is capturing something of beauty or of emotion or of an experience that is not there it’s It’s a representation of it, but it then has moved the artist to create it. So the artist has gone through some sort of emotional experience and then it’s moving you in some different time you know period. 

18:36.75 

Francesca 

Bye. 

18:38.92 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And so I just think that that is a magical um event For example, you know going to a museum and seeing a piece that catches your eye out of all the thousands of other pieces in that museum and then somehow just evoke something in you, that’s magical to me. 

18:44.22 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

18:56.01 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

So that transmutation um when I was going through a lot of the the grief and then also just a lot of the the the the negative emotions, doubt and You know, anxiety, fear, ah you know, those emotions have to be transmuted in some way. And that has been, I think, something that I’ve gained from the art process. um I feel very deeply. 

19:21.83 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

19:22.75 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

I think I feel a lot more deeply than, for example, my husband. 

19:25.01 

Charuka Arora 

I’m sure all of us would agree with that. 

19:27.40 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, it’s it’s sort of, I feel bad about feeling deeply. 

19:27.96 

Charuka Arora 

Feeling deeply. 

19:30.62 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Like I try to hide that aspect of me. I’ve always tried to kind of keep it in in check, right? 

19:33.04 

Charuka Arora 

ah 

19:33.13 

Varvara 

You 

19:33.77 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

19:36.27 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

I don’t want to be too loud or too pushy or too boisterous. 

19:38.17 

Varvara 

then. 

19:38.57 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

19:39.65 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

All of those stereotypes that that women grapple with, um but that’s hard to do. And so art has allowed me to express in this way that, you know, sometimes I create things and people say, I don’t even like it. 

19:47.11 

Francesca 

Bye. 

19:50.57 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Like my husband will say, I don’t like that piece. Or my daughter will say, ah, that’s not my favorite. And I just don’t care. And I just keep these. 

19:55.75 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

19:57.08 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And then eventually it might even find somebody who thinks they like it. i I’ve had collectors buy pieces that other people have said they didn’t really love. And that yeah that transmutation of my emotion into someone else’s experience and then getting something back from that, that to me is just amazing and cathartic and 

20:05.71 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

20:17.18 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

It has helped me heal ah with these deep emotions that I feel, and more therapy hasn’t really gotten as deep as creating art has. 

20:24.81 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

20:26.63 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

So that’s been, for me, really important. 

20:26.67 

Charuka Arora 

I would agree with that. 

20:28.48 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

20:29.41 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

so 

20:29.79 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

20:30.62 

Charuka Arora 

I think after losing my mom, something that really has helped me was journaling and art. I don’t think I would have made it without these two. I just inspired like, even now I feel like I’m still in the waters. But I mean, I was so much deep in the waters. And I don’t think if I had art or journal, like if I was not able to write my emotions, I don’t think any kind of therapy or anything would have helped me as much. I wouldn’t have made it. 

20:57.60 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

You know, yeah, I agree with you. 

20:58.58 

Charuka Arora 

Let’s hear from you. 

20:58.68 

Varvara 

Cool. 

20:59.14 

Charuka Arora 

and 

21:00.81 

Francesca 

I’ve got two things to say please remind me because they link to everything you’ve just said I think. 

21:00.72 

Charuka Arora 

You do. 

21:05.01 

Charuka Arora 

Please go ahead. 

21:05.28 

Francesca 

So first I wanted to say about this emotions you know that are of the importance of actually my left arm at the moment is semi-paralysed, I’m not sure but you know and that it’s just due to stress and actually it’s emotional 

21:14.95 

Charuka Arora 

Oh my God. Oh goodness. Why are you doing that? 

21:23.66 

Francesca 

because I’ve had this since my father died, actually. Well, basically a couple of years back, I just did the splash back for my own shower. And of course, I want to do it all on my own, all in two days, blah, blah, blah. I did the installation, of course. Oh my God, it’s really heavy. 

21:41.37 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

21:42.28 

Francesca 

And I don’t realize the age I have. 

21:43.56 

Charuka Arora 

Yes. 

21:44.26 

Francesca 

I still think I’m 18, I can do everything. 

21:45.98 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, 

21:46.48 

Francesca 

But anyway, and after that, I had a bit of a… I bet you’re the same. But you know, the tunnel tunnel syndrome, whatever it is here, right here, I couldn’t really move it. 

21:51.55 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

21:54.72 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

yeah. 

21:56.90 

Francesca 

For Western medicine, the only thing you can do is rest, wear a splinter, and if it gets worse, you have an operation. 

21:59.48 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Uh 

22:02.62 

Francesca 

But I went for acupuncture, right? And she said it was my energy flow that is blocked. 

22:05.48 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

-huh. 

22:09.58 

Francesca 

And it’s been there for a long time. And it is an emotional block. And it’s actually there since my father died. And what she did, she 

22:16.51 

Charuka Arora 

Oh my goodness. 

22:17.89 

Francesca 

she released it here and A, the pain moved immediately from here to here okay now that investment medicine cannot happen but guess what it happened to me so 100% believe you know believe in out in the energy flux you know that you’ve got and the chakras etc but anyway and then she said that has been here and she touched me in certain points before touching me she said look 

22:25.35 

Charuka Arora 

Yes. Yeah. yeah 

22:39.88 

Francesca 

I am releasing some of your emotional tension, so just to let you know, you probably feel a rush of emotions that could lead you to, you know, feeling pain, emotional pain. 

22:42.15 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Thank you. 

22:49.47 

Francesca 

Do you want me to go ahead with it? And I say, yes, please. She did. I started crying like a baby. 

22:54.80 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Mm 

22:55.19 

Francesca 

baby about my father, and I didn’t have my father in mind necessarily because they that happened, you know, my God, 15 years ago. 

23:01.46 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

hmm. 

23:03.59 

Francesca 

So I just thought, you know, it can’t be still there. And it was, it was just, so that was one thing connecting, you know, to, and I actually, agree I still use my arm because it’s when I use arm that I’m actually less stressed. 

23:08.70 

Charuka Arora 

and 

23:09.08 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yes. 

23:09.28 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

23:15.32 

Francesca 

So, you know, the one thing that the Western medicine does me not to do is the one thing that actually alleviates my brain. 

23:15.28 

Varvara 

more. 

23:20.89 

Francesca 

It’s it’s weird because emotionally, as you know, it’s therapeutic. It’s therapeutic to just do your thing. 

23:25.45 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

you 

23:25.97 

Charuka Arora 

but also you know a flip side to this could be also because you’re not only using your arm Um, I think a lot of times it’s also how and what we’re using like, you know If you’re using your arm for making something like, you know, if you’re even making art It’s all your arm may feel stressful, but because art is healing you it’s it’s relieving you of that stress It’s calming you down. It’s also helping you. I think art is such a great tool to uh, for let’s say i’m a very um emotional impact like you know I for me handling my emotions specifically after my mom gets too much and I’ve always seen the more I’m into my the more I’m in the studio while I’m making art I get better hold of my emotions or also I think I just love that alone time to be able to process it to be able to connect to myself and I think maybe that healing is 

24:17.62 

Charuka Arora 

probably more your healing from the soul of, you know, the connection with your work and having yourself with that is way more stronger than probably your physical pain. 

24:22.36 

Francesca 

Thank you. 

24:27.87 

Francesca 

Yes, and also I think it’s moving yourself in the energy around you. 

24:27.96 

Charuka Arora 

I don’t know. I’m um not an engineer. 

24:31.80 

Francesca 

You just forget about your own individual and you just for once merge with, you know, what’s around you, the energy, the cosmic energy, call it that, whatever you want, it’s there, you know, we do know it’s there. 

24:32.11 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

24:32.76 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

24:41.66 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

24:43.22 

Francesca 

And the second thing I want to say, sorry but quickly, and the yeah relationship between art and women. 

24:45.39 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

24:49.08 

Francesca 

Now I don’t consider myself a woman, I’m a feminist for sure, eco-feminist, but in the sense that I don’t care if I’m a woman or a man, I don’t care whoever anyone is. 

24:53.19 

Charuka Arora 

active as 

24:57.05 

Francesca 

um you know, it’s just important for a production in my view. But ah though I do feel that women usually have women or people who identify, ah you know, with a feminine side, ah give a lot deeper in connections with emotion themselves and the others. 

25:07.21 

Charuka Arora 

well 

25:15.06 

Francesca 

They’re more empathic. They tend to be more empathic, I think. And I think because of that, and also because of the history we had as women, now I never suffered for it, apart from a couple of times actually, where I oh my god honest I was fuming when I was I could tell that that man was treating me like an inferior being because I was a woman and not because she thought you know that I was inferior for other reasons that accepted but not just because I’m a woman you know it changes but anyway and I feel that because of that 

25:34.75 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

25:42.06 

Francesca 

And also because maybe all of us have changed careers, I’ve always had um an imposter syndrome of some sort, always. 

25:48.71 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

25:49.32 

Francesca 

It’s always the fact that I think that we want to learn more and more. 

25:49.25 

Charuka Arora 

you know 

25:53.06 

Francesca 

Yes, for sure. 

25:53.81 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

25:54.05 

Francesca 

We’re never enough. We feel like we never know enough. But I think that’s also comes from a listening security that we’ve been 

26:00.19 

Varvara 

more. 

26:00.88 

Francesca 

you know instilled from always since always in our due usually to religions unfortunately at least the western religions at least in my case but and my family wasn’t really religious at all yeah and was really forward but and that connects it to this piece because this is actually called the Cinderella tries the shoe or impostor syndrome because it reminds me a little bit of a you know a wedding dress 

26:23.97 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

26:27.01 

Francesca 

But it’s basically like Cinderella tries the shoe, she becomes a princess. And imagine what imposter syndrome she must have felt after that. 

26:34.04 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

yeah 

26:35.95 

Francesca 

Can you imagine? 

26:39.01 

Francesca 

From, you know, the ceiling, I’m not so sure that she actually had quite the life. Maybe she would have been happier marrying, you know, someone else instead. I mean, I’m glad for her. And it’s something that I feel all women can actually relate to for some reason whenever I talk. 

26:51.51 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

26:53.70 

Francesca 

I don’t know. 

26:53.68 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah, absolutely. 

26:54.37 

Francesca 

How do you feel? 

26:55.67 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

26:56.87 

Francesca 

And art is good for that because we’re actually putting ourselves out there. 

26:57.40 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

you 

26:58.48 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

27:00.11 

Francesca 

And I noticed that. 

27:00.85 

Charuka Arora 

and also making every way decisions. 

27:01.07 

Francesca 

and 

27:02.41 

Charuka Arora 

I think i’m another, I’m sure Dante would have some insight on this, but I i feel this very strongly. As artists, we take so many instinctive, quick decisions. Like art is a process of quick decision making, intuitive decision making. Like every second, you know, what color, it’s not, there’s no logic. We all have such different mediums and There is um and I’m I have met so many artists who last we lost about color theory who have great works Colorful like you look at and they will have no sense of color theory It’s such an intuitive like a lot of people work very very intuitively and the amount of decisions we make It just makes us such a better decision maker as such an impromptu Such an impromptu decision maker and um that helps us I think 

27:36.90 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

you. 

27:47.06 

Francesca 

Best clothes ever. ah sorry 

27:52.67 

Charuka Arora 

um overcome a lot of those barriers. Another thing when Francesca you were saying right um how women struggle and how impostor that comes in there’s a very common um you know pattern specifically I would say here in India um you know when specifically my mom’s age and people um our parents and all and even not that you know i’ve seen so many men who would be and this is a very common narrative they will tell their wives oh you cannot drive oh you’re not a just because you’re a woman you’re not a good driver or because uh if there’s this technology and there’s this oh you won’t be able to get it know many know how many times you you know we teach you or the children keep telling their mothers oh i’ve taught you this so many times and uh you know you you you can’t get it you won’t understand this you won’t get it 

28:33.11 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

28:42.77 

Charuka Arora 

And I feel like this is such a wrong narrative, because a lot of times, a lot of women, specifically homemakers, in the sense of specifically our mothers, they are so instantly discarded, saying, oh, you won’t get it. And the only difference is if we teach, for a lot of time, women have never been exposed to a lot of things. And that is why we don’t know it. 

29:04.15 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

sorry 

29:04.52 

Charuka Arora 

And that’s also where the imposter comes in. And men have been more exposed to a lot of those things. And if we are exposed to it more, of course we can do it more. There’s absolutely no other logic. So I don’t know if that, I just wanted to add to what Sensus Ka says, if anybody wants to add to that narrative. 

29:24.30 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

That’s 

29:26.00 

Varvara 

Well, I think that it is oh quite a lot of things that um yeah quite a huge pressure to women in general to be mom, to be beautiful, to gain money. 

29:30.82 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

right. 

29:38.74 

Varvara 

You all know that, right? 

29:40.66 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Absolutely. 

29:40.75 

Varvara 

So plus that, there is a lot of pressure to be an artist. You need to ah go to the party, go to the openings, like show your face, like send in all this, you know, it’s a lot of job. 

29:50.10 

Charuka Arora 

you 

29:53.56 

Varvara 

And through these pressures, they’re quite a lot, especially if you have family, if you need to take care of something. so But also this experience of these huge things that you need to process, it makes your art even deeper, I suppose. like Because my worrying about my kids created all of these psychological agendas so strong in my head. Because I want my kids to live better in the future. This is why I’m making this like social art. Because I want to fight for them. I want to i want to create a better world. 

30:28.87 

Varvara 

and ah I think this my mother experience ah really and strongly like changed me and changed my art because I don’t want to make it all only about me anymore. I want to make it about the people I love and care and this I think this is very different from the men’s perspective because men’s 

30:41.83 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

30:42.73 

Francesca 

Yes. 

30:46.08 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

30:51.80 

Varvara 

Some of the men care so much as women, but usually they have other problems, right? So they don’t spend so many times with kids, they’re caring and loving and nurturing, you know, it’s a lot of job, right? It’s not very… 

31:11.50 

Charuka Arora 

No, I think you’re know you’re absolutely right. 

31:12.44 

Francesca 

and know i think 

31:13.71 

Charuka Arora 

I think there’s so much of over run specifically from cultures like, you know I know Russia and India has a lot of overlap in the sense of the kind of societal pressures we have specifically for women and how traditionally women are pressurized. 

31:21.27 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Mm hmm. 

31:28.69 

Charuka Arora 

I feel like even today, while women are still, um so many women are still not allowed and they’re still fighting for very basic things, representation, opportunity, respect, 

31:33.31 

Francesca 

I know I think you… 

31:39.73 

Charuka Arora 

um Financial independence and then once we do get to that point, it’s not we’re only and there’s a very common narrative We’ve also seen on the internet that in in our today’s age in time We are also finding fighting fighting for more like, you know, we want access to education access to financial independence but we also have to look at how many other roles women are already operating in and nobody’s asking about okay, you can you know, you it’s not it’s only adding more to the plate. 

31:55.37 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

32:03.29 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

32:07.25 

Charuka Arora 

Nobody’s saying oh 

32:08.35 

Francesca 

yeah 

32:08.38 

Charuka Arora 

It’s okay, we’ll help you with something else and it only leads to more and more pressure on women. 

32:09.15 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

32:14.36 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, um the one of the, you know, it’s interesting this notion of imposter syndrome um from, you know, I always thought imposter cyr syndrome would eventually go away. 

32:14.38 

Francesca 

Yes. 

32:25.66 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

The more accolades I collected and the more achievements that I just knocked out of the park, right? 

32:28.07 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

32:28.90 

Francesca 

ah so 

32:31.22 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

I have to be better than the guys. I went, I got my PhD at a business school. I was always with these, you know, high testosterone, hard charging guys. I just thought as long as I can achieve in their world, that imposter syndrome is going to go away one day and it never ever did until I got to a point where I started to explore this creative part of my identity. 

32:44.22 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

32:44.53 

Varvara 

Good. 

32:47.13 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

32:54.82 

Francesca 

Thank 

32:56.46 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And I realized that a lot of artists, especially male artists, the real difference between whether they’re talented or their art is good because they’re there’s art for everyone, right? 

33:03.74 

Francesca 

you. 

33:05.83 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

So a piece that you don’t like, someone else may like. 

33:08.06 

Charuka Arora 

Yes. 

33:08.76 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

So it isn’t about talent, it’s about confidence. 

33:08.81 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

33:11.67 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

That’s what I saw as the difference between an artist who was willing to you know explore their career and put their art out there and then eventually get better because it’s a skill, you get better over time, and the artist who doesn’t is confidence. 

33:11.53 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

33:14.10 

Charuka Arora 

men and Yeah. 

33:20.59 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

33:21.61 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

33:22.39 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

33:24.67 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And then I realized that isn’t going to come to me. 

33:27.17 

Charuka Arora 

I 

33:28.40 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Confidence is just something that I’m going to have to get ahead of time. 

33:30.23 

Charuka Arora 

have to keep building. 

33:32.57 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Right? So it’s changing my mindset. 

33:32.76 

Francesca 

yeah 

33:34.29 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

It’s changing who I see myself as before I actually go out and then interface with the outside world. 

33:34.68 

Varvara 

Okay. 

33:41.22 

Francesca 

Again. 

33:41.88 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Because of getting validation from the outside world, I don’t think That was the message I got is that it’s never going to actually come. And so my art has become something that I do for myself in my studio. And then once it’s created, I put it out there and I just stand there and say, it’s me. And some people may pass it by. 

33:58.76 

Charuka Arora 

it’s Yeah. 

34:00.61 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Some people may engage with it, but that is my attempt at building that confidence and not waiting for that feeling of, Oh, now I belong. Now I fit. Now I’ve, I’ve, you know, hit the highest rung. I’m just not going to wait for that anymore. And I think that’s something, yeah, that as women, slowly but surely, I think that’s what we’re learning we have to do. 

34:15.59 

Charuka Arora 

I love this. 

34:18.36 

Francesca 

Yeah. Yeah. 

34:22.86 

Charuka Arora 

you know on adding on that there’s something that I read and exactly Dante this this is something that I’ve resonated with for a very long time I read this online I don’t know why where which is um there’s a huge difference between men’s success a male success rate and a female it’s not because of the scale 

34:23.10 

Varvara 

Thank you. 

34:43.42 

Charuka Arora 

um And it was that ever since a child has grown up, the difference between a male and a female child, specifically, I don’t know how it’s in the Western always, but I would say this, you know, Russia, Southeast Asian countries, a lot of our cultures are very similar. ah me A boy versus a female, a boy grows up with a lot of rejection and will they grow up in a way that they put themselves out there and they get rejected and they come back. versus women are always protected and they are always told to be careful and they are not to not put them as themselves out there and you know it they showed there was this very common example where they said you know a boy is always put that they can go propose the girl and then get rejected and come back and it wouldn’t hurt their ego as much they would go take a job or like you know they will go they are in from a from childhood to their adulthood 

35:15.20 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

All 

35:15.23 

Francesca 

Thank you. 

35:33.50 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

right. 

35:36.89 

Charuka Arora 

a boy so many times is pushed to go out and get rejected and come back and that how normal how that normalizes that it’s okay to fall and get up versus women as young girls are not as much in so many cultures they don’t put themselves out so much they don’t go out as much they’re not in public they have to be softer they have to be you know you a guy you can’t ask a guy out so you’re never you’re never going to be rejected 

35:49.06 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

36:05.51 

Charuka Arora 

So once you start to grow up and you actually put yourself out there, and the first rejection we get hurts so much. And then the next, the amount of hurt we feel in that adulthood versus a man is so different. 

36:19.45 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

It’s different. 

36:19.37 

Charuka Arora 

And that is why I feel like the imposter in women is so much higher. 

36:23.48 

Francesca 

Yes. 

36:23.53 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, and perfectionism as well. 

36:24.04 

Charuka Arora 

Like that voice is stronger. 

36:25.81 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, perfectionism is another piece of it, and right? 

36:26.01 

Varvara 

That’s interesting. 

36:27.39 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

36:28.59 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

36:28.95 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

36:30.59 

Varvara 

I think ah listening about the imposter syndrome, I understood that I have an imposter syndrome in everything, but not in my art. 

36:31.08 

Charuka Arora 

Right. 

36:36.28 

Francesca 

Yes. 

36:39.36 

Varvara 

Because this is the thing I’m really believing and I’m really confident like I’m an artist and I’m good at this. 

36:39.86 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

36:40.05 

Charuka Arora 

Oh. 

36:40.37 

Francesca 

ah yes 

36:47.44 

Varvara 

I might be not the perfect mother, perfect wife and so on, but I’m definitely a good artist. 

36:52.03 

Francesca 

and ah 

36:55.19 

Varvara 

And listening about the rejection thing, yeah ram I understood like I grew up without a father and nobody like, I wasn’t in a bubble. I always was fighting for myself and I got rejected so much in my life. 

37:10.06 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah Yeah Yeah 

37:10.05 

Varvara 

You know, growing up, going there, got rejected. So it’s not so traumatic for me anymore. So, okay, this open institution doesn’t want me, other will. Not a big deal. 

37:23.35 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

yeah 

37:23.82 

Francesca 

Let’s 

37:23.66 

Varvara 

And I think there comes this confidence really, because I like i know I’m not perfect as a many things, but in art, I’m like, okay, this is this is my thing. And honestly, this is the only thing I can do in my life. I was educated only in art since I was a child. 

37:39.40 

Francesca 

go. 

37:41.89 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. Yeah. 

37:42.44 

Varvara 

I i i don’t have any any other skills. So yeah, I need to take all or nothing. That’s why I need to be confident. ah I think that’s it. 

37:53.66 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Love it. Yeah. 

37:55.03 

Charuka Arora 

I love that goodness. 

37:56.22 

Francesca 

But can I just say something? ah Sorry, ah what ah my problem with confidence again, I love the confidence you have, vavaana I love your attitude and I don’t think I’m with you 100% in the sense that 

37:58.20 

Charuka Arora 

Yes please. 

38:06.11 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

38:10.32 

Francesca 

But what I do, imagine, even my friends are not vegan. Even tonight I had to go and meet them and we ordered, you know, we took all the orders because we ate in a friend’s house. And I was the only one who didn’t order chicken. And there were 10 chicken and one chickpeas for me. And you know what? I couldn’t sleep last night thinking, Actually, with all the stress I have now, you know, emotional stress, I don’t think I can handle staying there in the same room as 10 of my friends, fisting up on the flesh, you know, of innocent creatures, you know, for pleasure, whilst they’re also supporting the main cause of climate change in the situation I am now in this moment. 

38:31.28 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

38:37.93 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Hmm. 

38:45.33 

Francesca 

dying No, and and that actually and and I actually ah couldn’t sleep this morning. I told them, look, I’m really sorry. I still love you. I hope you love me back. Don’t judge me, but I can’t do this. you know And you know I felt until I sent that message, I felt so run down. 

38:55.66 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

39:01.42 

Francesca 

My confidence was under my my heels, as we say in Italy, because I just thought, what is the point of me doing what I do and believing in myself when actually I have 

39:10.63 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

39:11.56 

Francesca 

to suffer all this, you know, it might be my problem, you know, I am a bit overly sensitive, I care too much, I don’t know what it is, but in every single thing I do, which should be for pleasure and relaxation, you know, and finding the confidence again to say, no, but come on, we can do this, you know, it’s all worth it, there is no reason to do it. 

39:23.20 

Varvara 

Thank 

39:28.20 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

39:28.40 

Varvara 

you. 

39:30.04 

Francesca 

My God, it’s not the same confidence as I have in making art, it’s the confidence in what I do, like should I just drop it all, you know, and consume like the rest, take a flight and go somewhere, you know, finally, 

39:36.74 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, yeah. 

39:43.19 

Francesca 

Don’t eat meat, I couldn’t do that. 

39:43.94 

Charuka Arora 

I think also there’s a huge difference how it is easier for men to choose themselves first versus way much harder for women because as women we become primary caretakers of our children there are parents and like you know every ounce of when we feel like oh I am setting this boundary of oh I’m not comfortable with this there’s so much guilt that comes in with that and like oh am I asking for too much am I being too much like I think 

39:54.21 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

40:12.32 

Charuka Arora 

this constant pressure that a lot of us feel and there’s nothing to be blamed for men because they have the practice they’ve always had those boundaries they understand that equation but there’s so much that as women we’ve been expected in giving that the moment we start to put that boundary we start to feel um the guilt ah very strongly. 

40:33.79 

Francesca 

Yeah. And can I say one more thing? Another thing that really drives me off the up the wall, my husband is amazing. Yeah. He supports me 100%. He’s vegan like me. He, you know, the whole family is quite supportive, even in my children and teenagers. And, you know, sometimes one of them is a bit of a rebel, especially what I care about. that’s Not an easy mom, I am i don’t know. 

40:53.53 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. Yeah. 

40:53.56 

Francesca 

but um And I love it. Love it. Obviously, ironically, when people come up to you and say, oh, so you’re an artist, are you? So is your husband paying for you? the 

41:04.33 

Varvara 

All 

41:04.58 

Francesca 

It’s like a hobby. 

41:04.65 

Charuka Arora 

good 

41:06.04 

Francesca 

Actually, it’s my job. I actually make money. Yes, I’m not the first, you know, the one who supports it, but I think, you know, so you cannot be working in art, but male artists can. 

41:08.21 

Charuka Arora 

look 

41:15.35 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

and Yeah. 

41:15.46 

Varvara 

right. 

41:17.20 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

41:17.26 

Francesca 

Do you know? 

41:17.17 

Charuka Arora 

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

41:19.16 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Absolutely. 

41:19.67 

Francesca 

as old as that. Like, no, you know, I’m actually making money out of this. This is my job. What do you do? Do you beg him to take you seriously or do you just dismiss him? You know, run, you know, run over you. 

41:35.07 

Charuka Arora 

No. 

41:35.10 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah I love that you know but this is very true it does not even matter there’s so many times like um even if like not a partner but like I I work with my friends and I’m the only female so many times that are you know you as a woman if there’s something more important they’ll instantly even like you know there’s so many days in India if you’re going for a conversation like I remember I was buying my car 

41:35.85 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

41:36.12 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

41:57.67 

Charuka Arora 

And um when I was buying my car, the first thing, I mean, I had done the paperwork and all of those things. So a boy called me from the dealership and they asked me, oh, so can I talk to your husband about the money? 

42:11.56 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Mm 

42:12.29 

Charuka Arora 

And I said, I do not have a husband. There’s nobody to pay. I pay the money. And then they made a group and then they addressed me as Mrs. Charuka Rura. They automatically assumed that ah for me to be able to buy a car for myself on that context and everything, I would i would be married or I would have someone paying that. 

42:27.52 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

-hmm. 

42:30.84 

Charuka Arora 

And assuming my age, they thought oh I would have a husband to pay for that. So it is just so deeply assumed. 

42:36.14 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

42:37.22 

Charuka Arora 

And I do like the thing in the sense of sometimes I’m so fueled up with it that if I have a downtime, I’m like, now I’m going to show, you know, you think I need a husband to do this. Now I’m still going to do what I really can do. But also, um some days it gets extremely burdening and um self worth questioning in the sense that how can somebody think that just because I’m a woman, they assume that, you know, I couldn’t do this. 

43:03.13 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

43:03.08 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

43:04.37 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And, you know, part of it can be very frustrating that we haven’t come further along than we are right now, even in the United States. 

43:04.82 

Varvara 

Yeah, that’s funny. 

43:14.44 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

43:15.67 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

um Those stereotypes, that exact stereotype exists. I run three businesses and I’m always asked by but insurance brokers, and and we need to have your husband on this. 

43:19.89 

Varvara 

Mm hmm. 

43:25.24 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Or, you know, my loan, you know, my my mortgage broker, yeah, we need to make sure your husband knows all the details. and he doesn’t know any of these. He can’t do finance. 

43:33.43 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

43:33.95 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And so, you know, this is, this is just how the world is today. It hasn’t gone as far as we’d like. But part of what I think we have to constantly tell ourselves is that we are establishing, we’re trailblazers. 

43:40.67 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

43:48.48 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

it Still, even though we shouldn’t be, we should be, you know, just coasting along, everything should be finished already. 

43:48.60 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

43:54.40 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

People should already have everything, you know, correct in their lives, but they don’t. And we are helping to establish new norms, right for our kids. And it’s gonna be a bumpy road. 

44:05.57 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

44:07.20 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

It’s gonna be a two step forward, one step back. And I think that’s how I channel that frustration that I feel every day. So Francesca, I feel that, I feel the way you feel every day. 

44:14.23 

Francesca 

Thank 

44:16.54 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Am I doing this right? What the heck am I doing this for? But the point is that it’s better to take the two steps forward than to take no steps at all. 

44:23.48 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

44:25.33 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

And that that is what we owe the folks who have passed. 

44:25.51 

Charuka Arora 

Oh, I love that. 

44:29.79 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

you know My mom, you your parents, people you love who have are not here anymore. We owe them that. That’s the way I see it. like I owe my mom that I’m going to keep fighting because otherwise what did she do? 

44:37.85 

Francesca 

you. 

44:41.98 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Everything she did for and all the steps she took, it would be for nothing. 

44:44.45 

Francesca 

Yes. 

44:44.87 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

44:46.91 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

So that’s kind of the motivation I take and to hell with everybody else. 

44:47.45 

Charuka Arora 

know 

44:50.80 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

44:51.05 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

You’re right. 

44:51.51 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

44:52.12 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

44:51.97 

Varvara 

I totally agree with that. And also, of course, I have these doubts. If I choose a better job, a better pay paid job, you know, a job that can actually gain me a lot of money, and not this sometimes, seem for for a present, I don’t know. But you know as you said, and my my family put so much effort to my education, to my career. Just just saying, you’re good. you know Maybe not paying for that, but just like being there, going to be sure and supporting me. 

45:23.69 

Charuka Arora 

yeah and 

45:26.75 

Varvara 

And also, as yeah as we said in the start of our meeting, art is the best ah therapy. 

45:32.75 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah absolutely right. 

45:32.61 

Varvara 

i’m I’m like six years in therapy, but art is the best. 

45:34.78 

Charuka Arora 

therapy. 

45:36.34 

Varvara 

is the ah 

45:37.72 

Charuka Arora 

I second. 

45:39.33 

Varvara 

So yeah, we couldn’t live without that. 

45:40.23 

Francesca 

yeah 

45:40.58 

Charuka Arora 

Absolutely. 

45:42.32 

Varvara 

We couldn’t live, maybe we can have other job, but also we need art to live. 

45:49.36 

Charuka Arora 

yeah i do agree with that i think there’s so so much pressure also with artists and people who want to be creative specifically in our time to today but we constantly like for for some time while i was focusing a lot on arts to hearts in my other business i had intentionally put out this that i didn’t and i didn’t emotionally feel ready to put myself out there because a lot of my art was possessing my grief and i had i put out that into myself that i don’t want art as a source of income i want as a art as a source of healing as a source of privacy, as a source of intimacy for me than anything else. 

46:24.50 

Charuka Arora 

And that was far more a priority for me than choosing to be the best artist, the most successful artist or any of those. 

46:28.61 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

46:31.82 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

46:33.18 

Francesca 

Yes, sorry, in fact, I wanted to add something. 

46:33.27 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

yeah Yeah. 

46:34.78 

Francesca 

When I said it, art pays me. 

46:34.82 

Charuka Arora 

No, no, sorry. 

46:40.28 

Francesca 

I don’t care about that. and i already have to It’s like it you you have to justify it. You use it to justify yourself in front of other people. 

46:46.61 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

46:47.52 

Francesca 

It’s where they base your importance, which is already is a factor that is I don’t find it’s right or should you know judge the importance of someone’s work. 

46:47.40 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

46:48.89 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

46:54.88 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

yeah 

46:54.81 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

46:56.81 

Francesca 

I don’t care. I think our system doesn’t work and should be changed completely, basically. 

47:00.98 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

47:01.92 

Francesca 

you can add to society and the greater good that you know how much you contribute to the greater good and I think art actually does make the world a better place. in its own so 

47:10.45 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Absolutely. 

47:10.84 

Charuka Arora 

living 

47:12.53 

Varvara 

do 

47:12.60 

Charuka Arora 

art in women 

47:13.85 

Francesca 

so ah 

47:15.51 

Varvara 

Yeah, Artan women, for sure. 

47:17.43 

Charuka Arora 

yeah Yes, yes. I’m so glad we had this conversation. Thank you so much guys. We I’m so glad that I got to speak to each one of you and I’m so inspired by how three of you like like this is the beauty of um you know what we do how we all have such different purposes. how we feel so differently yet how we connect with each other and how that this beauty of connecting over art and womanhood and our experiences and what we feel even though our perspectives could be entirely different as our ways and you know there’s so much unity in spite of how different we are. 

47:53.98 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

47:56.21 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Absolutely. 

47:56.50 

Francesca 

Yeah, absolutely. 

47:57.31 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

47:57.98 

Varvara 

Yeah. 

47:58.45 

Francesca 

No, I’d love to keep in touch with that. 

47:58.75 

Charuka Arora 

Thank you so much. yeah guys 

48:00.35 

Francesca 

I would like to have everyone’s context for sure, please. 

48:00.84 

Charuka Arora 

hi 

48:03.16 

Charuka Arora 

no absolutely I’m also going to ask you before I go before I let all of you go how about all of you share if there’s anything upcoming that we can share your project anything you have coming up that people can support you make sure you share your website instagram or where people can find you support you if they want to you know connect with you also further also art and women everyone all these three beautiful women are published in art and women book that they can grab a copy now Go ahead, Francesca, why don’t you stop? 

48:33.34 

Francesca 

okay So but basically I’ve got a website which is called FrancescaBusca.art and I also have an Instagram which is Francesca underscore busca and one that’s out for trash actually art underscore for underscore trash which is you know more related to the projects I’m doing. 

48:33.83 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

48:49.68 

Francesca 

What’s upcoming, I have a non-exclusive collaboration retain and now coming up with the Institute of Marine Sciences in Venice, with whom I just had a year-long collaboration that ended with a residency, two weeks residency that I adored. And of course, ive already the legacy of it, I could tell was a lot bigger because also, out sorry, 10% of my art for trash projects I give to charity and environmental charity. And usually that is Neptune’s Pirates, which is the older Sea Shepherd. So I’m really into the oceans and the importance of the oceans. 

49:21.99 

Varvara 

Yes. 

49:22.81 

Francesca 

for our The entire ecosystem is huge and we we don’t even know you know the beginning of it still. 

49:24.88 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah, yeah. 

49:28.37 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

49:29.62 

Francesca 

But basically they also fertilise, you know, the whales fertilise the Sahara, that’s as far as as it goes. It’s just the whole ecosystem, it’s all connected. I wish, you know, we could have thought about it before starting, you know, to make some piles of it completely disappearing. 

49:41.66 

Charuka Arora 

Yeah. 

49:44.12 

Francesca 

Anyway, and yeah, so that would be interesting because I have collaborations coming up with some great prestigious art institutes in Venice. other exhibitions are coming up, other things are coming up. But anyway, it’s all on the website and yeah, or Instagram, that’d be nice. 

49:57.14 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yeah. 

49:59.31 

Francesca 

Also, just to say, I think all artists should connect on Instagram. 

49:59.37 

Charuka Arora 

yeah 

50:03.67 

Francesca 

It’s an amazing way to keep in touch. Also, because most of the time I notice that if I see something that, ah you know, for which an artist brings to mind, I can send a message or forward it. 

50:14.29 

Charuka Arora 

yeah yeah absolutely yeah yes so make sure you do follow Francesca and I will make sure that we link everybody’s links in the show notes the images and everything how about where can we find you Dante and where how can we support you 

50:15.40 

Francesca 

Right. And it’s a beautiful way to create a network, you know, make the world a smaller place. 

50:21.04 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

yeah 

50:21.35 

Francesca 

Yeah. 

50:32.18 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Yes, definitely so my website is dante peruse art dot.com so you can definitely sign up to for my newsletter to kind of hear what the the latest news is I have an exhibition um with a gallery so finally getting gallery and representation which was a long time coming. 

50:50.66 

Francesca 

Woo! 

50:50.60 

Charuka Arora 

Congratulations. 

50:51.82 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

We’ll see how it goes and but that is in a gallery just outside of Minneapolis so that’s gonna be coming up this fall and But definitely follow me on Instagram. 

51:00.42 

Charuka Arora 

Thank 

51:04.31 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

So Dante underscore peruse underscore art and I love to have new followers and connect that way I also agree with that. 

51:09.96 

Charuka Arora 

you 

51:11.89 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

It’s just a fantastic way to connect. So um Yeah, that’s it 

51:17.20 

Charuka Arora 

thank you What about you, Vavira? Where can we find you and support you? 

51:21.20 

Varvara 

I have a website vargrana.com because var is my name, grana is my second name so vargrana.com and my Instagram is vargranaart and I really love the Instagram as well because it has so so much good connection with other artists and not only an artist. 

51:25.88 

Charuka Arora 

okay 

51:29.02 

Francesca 

uh like 

51:43.50 

Varvara 

I just opened two exhibitions in Moscow and um ah in ah August I’ll be in Austria in summer academic school and after that I’m i’m not planning, oh I will have a um a solo show in Montenegro next year but I don’t have dates yet. 

51:57.57 

Charuka Arora 

Thanks. 

52:01.29 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Wow. 

52:04.47 

Charuka Arora 

Perfect. So thank you so much. I will make sure all of these links are added to the article and the show notes of this episode. And um again, guys, make sure you support their work. Follow them on Instagram and give them a shout out if you did like this episode. And what part of this episode did you resonate the most with? Let us know. Tag us. And don’t forget to grab your copy of the Art in Women book and share you know more stories with each other. thank you three of you thank you so much for your time thank you Dante a very special thank you and a big big kudos to everything that you do all of you thank you same here one sec i’ll 

52:43.13 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

ah Okay, thank you, bye. 

52:43.28 

Varvara 

Thank you. 

52:43.56 

Francesca 

thank you they you i lovely meet you 

52:46.39 

Dante M_ Pirouz 

Bye. 

52:46.43 

Francesca 

ah hello 

53:07.82 

Francesca 

Thank you, thank you. Lovely to meet you. 

Charuka Arora is the founder of the Arts to Hearts Project and Host of the Arts to Hearts Podcast. She is also an acclaimed Indian artist known for her contemporary embellished paintings. Her unique blend of gouache, collage, embroidery, painting, and drawing explores the intersection of art, culture, heritage, and womanhood. Through her work, she tells stories of female strength and encapsulates them in pieces that can be treasured for generations.

Charuka’s work draws inspiration from Hindu mythology, recognizing women as vessels of Shakti, the cosmic energy. She beautifully portrays powerful goddesses like Durga Maa riding a tiger or lion, symbolizing their unlimited power to protect virtue and combat evil.

Through her art, Charuka invites us into the world of women, showcasing their beauty, strength, and resilience. Her creations not only exhibit exceptional talent but also serve as an inspiration and a symbol of hope for those challenging societal norms.

Arts to Hearts Podcast is a show delving into the lives and passions of renowned artists. From running creative businesses and studio art practices to cultivating a successful mindset, Charuka Arora engages in heartfelt conversations with her guests. Experience your personal happy hour with your favorite artists, right in your studio.

Through candid discussions, Charuka and her guests reveal the joys and challenges of a vibrant creative life, both within and beyond our studios. Get ready to be inspired and uplifted as you tune in.

Francesca Busca

Francesca is an eco-artivist based in the UK, originally from Italy. She transitioned from being a solicitor to a passionate mosaic artist focusing on sustainability. Her work involves using waste materials like plastic and creating intricate mosaic pieces. Francesca also engages in pro bono work with schools and institutions to promote sustainability and environmental awareness.

Varvar Grankova

Varvara is a social artist from Moscow, Russia, with a strong focus on feminist and ecological themes in her work. She creates large installations from used clothes, emphasizing recycling and sustainability. Varvara’s art often delves into trauma, violence, and fear, providing a unique perspective on contemporary social issues through her creative expressions.

Dante Pirouz

Dante is a painter located in Michigan, USA, who discovered his creative side later in life despite coming from a family of artists. He incorporates deep emotions and personal experiences into his artwork, finding healing and catharsis through the creative process. Dante’s journey as an artist has been influenced by his family’s artistic background and his own quest for self-expression.