I n the S2EP65 of The Arts to Hearts Podcast,

Charuka Arora, Artist & Host of the Arts To Hearts Podcast is joined in by Artist Consultant, Pennylane Shen from Dazed Confucius

In this Episode,

1. You will hear Pennylane talk about her early years. Her beginning as an artist & then what led her to being an artist consultant.
2. Pennylane shares the transition in the art world with the pandemic
3. Pennylane shares common beliefs and struggles artists experience
4. How Artists can be benefitted from having external help in their careers
5. Pennylane shares her advice for artists finding more clarity

DAZED & CONFUSCIOUS :

WEBSITE:

INSTAGRAM:

LISTEN TO THE FULL EPISODE NOW!

Charuka Arora, Founder of Arts To Hearts Project

Charuka On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/charukaarora/

https://artstoheartsproject.com/

CALL FOR WOMEN ARTISTS

In collab w/ Photo Trouvee Magazine

Theme: ‘TREASURED MOMENTS’

✨Guest curated by @naufss & @twiggyboyerart
Co- Founders of @phototrouvee

✨Deadline: 7th Feb, 2022

AUTOMATED TRANSCIPRT

00:00.12
charukaarora
Hey, you guys welcome back to the arts 2 hearts podcast and this is season 2 I can’t believe that you’re already here in season 2 and I’m so excited to share my guests for today today I have the famous pennying. Ah. On the podcast penny lane is an artist consultant. She’s an educator. She’s a lot of things more than anything. She’s someone that has really put forward a lot of support system for artists. Um I have been a fan of pennyline’s work and I’ve heard. So much about um, her from so many ah of you know our community. Um I am so thrilled to have you on the podcast today but I really don’t want to take a take up too much of time and I want to really invite pen lane here welcome to the podcast pen eline.

00:54.17
Pennylane
Thank you so much I’m so happy to be here.

00:57.11
charukaarora
Thank you? Okay, before we get into the podcast would you like to? um I don’t think I did a I had to phase introduction but I just wanted to hear from you and people who are listening to the podcast. Ah, would you introduce yourself and what you do.

01:15.37
Pennylane
Yeah, sure so my name is penny lane shen and I run a business called dazed and confucius and we consult with artists worldwide as well as deliver seminars and services about becoming a full-time artist or taking your art practice to the next level. Myself work with about 600 artists 1 on 1 each year um but through consultations every day and I also traveled to deliver these seminars about professional practices and development in your in your arts.

01:37.51
charukaarora
Wow.

01:53.64
Pennylane
Career. Um, and we’ve been doing this for quite a while now I started the business in 2006 we’ve grown since then to have a number of other consultants and um writing services and website development things like that along the way.

01:59.16
charukaarora
You.

02:09.66
charukaarora
Perfect that sounds amazing I know so many of my own friends who fought with you and who’ve only said good things and nothing else. But let’s let’s go a little. Let’s go back A little back in time. Um, how let’s.

02:20.46
Pennylane
I’m so happy to hear it.

02:27.21
charukaarora
Let’s talk about where were you born and um, how did you get into the arts in the first place

02:32.25
Pennylane
Yeah, so I was um, raised here in Canada where I live now and um I grew up in a primarily. Um I grew up in ah in a great household in Canada but I didn’t I didn’t necessarily. Um.

02:36.99
charukaarora
Yeah.

02:50.60
Pennylane
Have ah a large exposure to the art world I was a visible I am a visible minority I come from Asian heritage and that just wasn’t in the cards for um, somebody like myself and growing up at that in the household that I was in. However, um.

02:51.91
charukaarora
So yeah.

03:10.10
Pennylane
It was always sort of on the side for me and something I was really interested in and something I was really frankly like good at as a child um, creating and making I’ve always been really drawn to the making of things and. Then when I entered University I pursued 2 2 things simultaneously 1 of them was um English literature and the other 1 was fine art. So Luckily I was able to go to the school that allowed me to do both and Pursue I was it was 2 schools actually 2 universities that you went to at the same time.

03:35.76
charukaarora
Wow.

03:43.48
charukaarora
Um, a wow.

03:45.83
Pennylane
And 1 of them. Yeah, 1 of them was for the academia and the other 1 was for the art so you commuted between the 2 Um and in my final years I took a course called the visual culture theory that was just being introduced to my university at that time. Um, and I was. So captivated and drawn by it that eventually I went and pursued my master’s degree in it and it was basically um, it is the study of how images make meaning and I was fascinated by that and basically the power of art more than necessarily the making of art itself for myself.

04:14.29
charukaarora
Okay.

04:21.32
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

04:24.11
Pennylane
And so I stopped making the artwork and started to talk about the artwork and that led to years and years in the gallery industry basically talking about art writing about it selling it of course and working with artists.

04:35.50
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah.

04:43.40
Pennylane
And the part that I found I enjoyed the most was the working with artists part so a number of years ago I quit my job at in the in the gallery world and continued my own business in the advising world. So that’s where we are today.

04:51.36
charukaarora
Yeah.

04:57.63
charukaarora
Yeah, that is so wonderful and you know you’ve said ah quite a few like very important things that a lot of a lot of us. Um, experience in our creative parts. Especially I feel like the first 1 um. Demarcating and understanding the difference between ah we what do we want to be a part part of the process of making art or the process of eitherconsuming art in another way like talking about art because a lot of times people enjoy art and they feel like you know they want to be an artist or. Um, a lot of times like I think I see this a month amidst a lot of artists and people involved in the arts. How did you realize that I think because this is very fundamental question especially when you’re getting into an industry and you feel like this is something that like you know that feels like you’re calling. How were you able to recognize the fact that. You know? Okay I I like arts but I’m not in the making process. But I’m instead and the propose process.

05:59.81
Pennylane
Yeah I think that’s you know, tough to say because it happened quite organically and you know when you when you leave art school. Um for me I needed to get a job.

06:15.10
charukaarora
Yes, yeah.

06:16.70
Pennylane
And it made sense to get a job in a gallery and of course then the next job you get is also in a gallery because you already have the experience and the next job is also in a gallery because you have even more experience That’s right? So then I just climbed that court like basically the ladder of getting to the higher and higher end galleries.

06:22.95
charukaarora
Yeah, you have big experience. Yeah.

06:34.68
Pennylane
Um, so it kind of 1 sort of be begets the next that’s how it that’s how it organically happened. However, um, you know when I was in the bfa. The art school part making of the artwork. Um.

06:38.60
charukaarora
Now.

06:51.37
Pennylane
There were something about like the critiques with other artists like the the group critiques with my fellow peers that I Just really really enjoyed and perhaps perhaps now I am and you know in hindsight looking back more so than than the making as I said like so in the making of the artwork.

07:04.23
charukaarora
Meeting.

07:08.98
Pennylane
And I do really think it takes 2 different kinds of people I know that there are a lot of you know there are a lot of folks out there who are consultants that are also artists and then there’s those who are artists that are also consultants but I feel like the reason um I’m able to speak to the artwork is.

07:18.40
charukaarora
That comes up.

07:26.79
charukaarora
Not yeah.

07:27.10
Pennylane
Is truly because I am not a working full-time artist myself? yes and I do think that that if I was um, it would affect my objectivity towards artwork and also of course it would affect my ability to and time.

07:34.19
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah.

07:44.71
Pennylane
That I dedicated to the gallery industry which took which it itself is a full-time job. It’s yeah as any artist knows um, it’s difficult to to balance 2 full-time things and for me it was yeah it wasn’t possible. so so I would not have been able to um, accumulate the experience that I have.

07:45.30
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah.

07:54.34
charukaarora
A hundred percent.

08:04.45
Pennylane
In the gallery industry if I did pursue a life as a full-time artist. It definitely gives me insight and I yeah and there’s some I think there are benefits to the to that other side and I’m so though grateful to have um, had that experience getting my bfa. It’s certainly taught me a lot about just.

08:09.88
charukaarora
That’s true.

08:13.72
charukaarora
Now. Now. Um, yeah, yeah.

08:23.83
Pennylane
Use of materials that I wouldn’t have gotten otherwise um and they but the ability to like ah you know have a full-time studio practice so that was useful and I’m really happy for that. But I I do think that. Um. It’s not possible to to be an artist consultant and have a full time art practice.

08:41.30
charukaarora
Yeah that’s true and I think what’s really good about this situation is that once I feel at least I can speak as an artist myself and also have experienced the other end of it I feel like firstly as an artist. Um, ah what we lag a lot of times. Is relatability because it’s easy for people to say but it’s very hard for people to understand what it truly feels like to be an artist unless and until you’ve truly experienced it and I feel like what’s really great in this combination of that you have is that even though you’re not a practicing artist anymore. You know what it feels like Mark because you’ve been there that you’ve known you know that I don’t think anyone who’s not who can ever understand what it means to be immersed in the studio unless they’ve been immersed in the studio because it’s it’s an experience in itself. Um, you know. And I think people also have like really weird perceptions and I don’t know. Maybe it’s just because I come from like I come from India and the background and it’s it’s a very unusual job even in like in India a lot of people think like you know you know how they need to do. You know, hard work or like labor or like you know stuff like that just to get through their day and artist gets gets to spend like you know, just out like hours in the Studio you’re listening to the music and like you know, whatever people feel like there’s a classy picture but they don’t know what goes. In the studio and then what happens with the unpredictability of being an artist the um, you know the how volatile a career this could be and I think someone who’s been a part of it truly can understand the fears and ah. The worries watch really matters more to artists and then can see it from a third perspective and not be emotionally involved in that process because you are not as you know you’re not a shareholder in that process. You are a third party who will always see something from a neutral point of view than an emotional point of view. Okay, so what? what did you think? otherwise would you? What did you want to become if not this I mean this I’m sure you would have not thought.

10:54.32
Pennylane
That’s it absolutely.

11:02.43
Pennylane
If not an artist consultant. Um.

11:08.26
charukaarora
I mean this is something life brought you to but I will this is to and me even for today someone like it’s a very niche industry. Um consultation kneeche down also so I’m sure this hasn’t been on the cars like it just happened to you.

11:20.17
Pennylane
Yes, absolutely.

11:25.88
Pennylane
Yeah, like um, but sort of it was um, it was that many many folks came into the gallery that I was at and and would um, try to get in and they would do kind of all the wrong things and kind of shoot themselves in the foot and I saw this time and time again at each gallery I was at and you know, um.

11:26.37
charukaarora
Am I right.

11:44.86
Pennylane
And then folks would ask the same questions again and again and so I thought you know this is more than well over a decade ago now. Um maybe closer to 2 actually but it was I I said like okay, why don’t we just have 1 I’m go to have.

11:51.40
charukaarora
And row.

12:04.14
Pennylane
1 session that says all these things you know all these things have just made up of the the constant kind of blunders that artists were coming in and doing and um, what might be more useful right.

12:11.70
charukaarora
Just yeah.

12:18.11
Pennylane
So I held this 1 and it was like immediately sold out it was packed. It was full on and then you know it just really showed and I didn’t do really anything this was before social media as well I didn’t really do it. Yeah exactly yeah and so ah, people just showed up and in.

12:23.96
charukaarora
Yeah, that’s like another word.

12:34.94
Pennylane
And that’s when it told me that um there was a real need for the type of information. Ah, still though, not for a long long time did I actually pursue it. Yeah like so there was a need for it. Yeah I ran the the annual twice a year seminars where I just again it was called navigating the art industry.

12:36.00
charukaarora
Um, yeah, hundred percent. Oh wow.

12:52.59
charukaarora
Okay.

12:54.77
Pennylane
And then eventually a college here. Um, asked me to teach it as a class as a twelve week class so I did that yeah I did that for many years while I was still at the gallery. Okay, we’ll doing the gallery and then I just couldn’t let go of the gallery because I felt a lot of.

13:00.10
charukaarora
Oh wow.

13:12.52
charukaarora
Yeah.

13:13.40
Pennylane
Fear around around leaving it even though. Um for every reason I should have left it much earlier. But um I felt a lot of fear around around that because as you said this this was ah a niche a very very niche position being an artist consultant or artist Advisor. Um. It was frankly something that I had never seen before. Okay, so yeah.

13:34.66
charukaarora
Yeah that’s true I think even today it’s not a very um, especially I feel like the position that especially that you’ve marked for yourself. It’s very few like it’s it’s very rare and. You can see a lot of artists coach now appear and like you know, different. But I feel like what you do is. It’s like a very professional service but of you know, general consultation to like in a corporate format.

13:54.68
Pennylane
That’s right.

14:06.43
charukaarora
Convert it into a creative format for artist.

14:08.60
Pennylane
Yes, yeah, so I you know I hope so but and really all of it has come from I do see a lot of similar things now of course it seems very prevalent today. But at that time it was very niche and and quite risky for me so it was not something that i.

14:22.39
charukaarora
Yeah, absolutely.

14:27.33
Pennylane
Yeah I felt comfortable diving into so of course I did it all weekends and then I did it part time and pretty much slowly phased out my um gallery position and and let the other 1 kind of take over before before eventually taking that leap and and diving right into starting.

14:34.83
charukaarora
Gall.

14:40.62
charukaarora
Now.

14:45.92
Pennylane
You know it’s not just becoming an artist consultant. It’s also becoming an entrepreneur right and becoming an yeah and becoming an entrepreneur itself is just like scary and comes with a whole giant learning curve.

14:46.85
charukaarora
Yeah, 100 percent is and I think it and especially then being I feel like it. It has so many layers like being a creative like being an entrepreneur in a creative industry. Um. Is 1 layer then being in the arts is another leo and then being four artists which is like because now I feel the narrative has been stronger that you know you need to and I think there’s no doubt I always advocate the fact that we all need to invest in our careers to you know to go forward. You need to take that. Effort and it depends on the ability that you can do at that point. But sometimes I agree that a lot of people cannot invest in times of money but it can be invested in times of effort time. But if and when you need to like any business like any. All artists are again, they need to know business and this is a form of business apart from creative practice and you need to invest in your business to make sure that it trade from or returns to you and I think at that point it was even riskier because this this notion has been way more popular now that people understand that. Okay, you do you want. To be like a professional artist. This is at least the minimum that you need to do maybe you know have a website invest invest in a website have a better copy have a better artistate mean have a better you know now people understand that they need to invest. But at that point I think the starving artist narrative. Also. Um, maybe I don’t know how was that in Canada but I think the starving artist. Um Narrative was so strong that I’m sure it it. It must have been even harder to set you know to change that tone and to make like.

16:36.21
Pennylane
Absolutely.

16:39.37
charukaarora
Realize artists that they have the potential in their hands and they don’t have to keep waiting for more people.

16:42.86
Pennylane
Completely That’s right, absolutely. So yeah, it was. It was all um, very new Basically um so for myself and for the audience that I was trying to reach out to in other words and you’re right? The starving artist kind of um.

16:49.65
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah.

17:01.40
Pennylane
Narrative was is deeply rooted and something that we have to unthink. Um, yeah and I definitely felt nervous about um, leaving my job because I thought it was the reason why people were listening to me and why people wanted. Um, ah.

17:14.69
charukaarora
Yeah.

17:20.80
Pennylane
The the advice that I was giving um or my perspective I thought it was solely and absolutely based on my association to the gallery and when I left I realized that it wasn’t at all. No 1 no 1 ever even knew or asked me about that it was and I also realized that i.

17:27.52
charukaarora
Yeah, that wasn’t.

17:39.17
Pennylane
It had nothing to do with that myself. Um I was you know the things that um I feel confident about speaking to ah a person’s practice is because of me like that comes from me and um, not from not from my you know, not from a piece of paper. Basically.

17:47.80
charukaarora
Yeah.

17:56.20
charukaarora
Yeah, that’s true.

17:59.17
Pennylane
So um, it took a while to to sort of realize that that actually ah yeah, people people are interested in in in me because of Penny lane not because of me. Yeah.

18:05.80
charukaarora
That’s today I think today you that’s a testament because you you are based out of character but you work with artists from all over the globe and I think in it says in itself that defines and that explains its own.

18:15.78
Pennylane
Yeah, that’s right.

18:22.74
charukaarora
Like how much it’s needed and how much it’s resonated with people because I know I’ve I’ve hardly Seen. Um I’ve been wanting to work with you for so long and I know that here even in India I have I think again what we spoke about resonance. I don’t think primarily people look at a designations and where we come from instead I think what what we look at is if this person can relate to us and I think that’s all that matters at the end.

18:56.80
Pennylane
Absolutely I Well you know it’s something that I’ve had to learn firsthand. So um, yeah, fantastic.

19:00.93
charukaarora
Ah, yeah, love. Okay so what happened when you decided um that you that you okay, you were like here. This is what you want to do ah you figured that you were interested in working with the artist. Um. You quit your job. How were your early years and your experiences um in in those early years working with artists especially at Bay in conditions.

19:26.70
Pennylane
Um, yeah, um for sure I’m trying to think I guess you know I’m trying to think of some some early obstacles that we faced. Um, it was never about necessarily um, generating.

19:35.99
charukaarora
Yeah.

19:45.93
Pennylane
An an audience as I said the need was there So um, filling filling those appointment spots. It was never about that and knock on wood I’m very grateful that that that was the case and still is the case. Um, but you know there was a very small pool of people that I saw and I saw them in person.

19:55.66
charukaarora
Yeah.

20:04.16
Pennylane
And so I would drive to artists studios every day and yeah and do them in person. This was not this was in person again just in where I lived so um, funny enough like that kept me busy enough like you know, just seeing people here.

20:04.66
charukaarora
Ah wow, This was non personal media. You.

20:21.86
Pennylane
And of course it like it grew and grew and therefore and then I started traveling to other cities to do it and then other countries and so on still always in person and then we opened our office here in Vancouver and then people stop I stopped going to them and they came to me and that wasn’t big.

20:34.58
charukaarora
Okay, the extreme day shit.

20:40.65
Pennylane
And that was a big adjustment for folks because they really you know didn’t necessarily like that of course I mean you would prefer everyone would prefer me go to them. Um, and they were like Well how can you? you know how could you possibly see the artwork and how can we talk about it without seeing it and even though they would have to send in photos.

20:44.69
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah.

20:53.15
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah.

20:59.73
Pennylane
Of the work or bring a couple pieces in and and still artists today. Um, who are really old school are are like that’s a hangup for them. They they um prefer that I go to them and see the work but truly it was because at that point I had seen thousands and thousands of artwork like I understood what.

21:05.60
charukaarora
Yeah.

21:18.12
charukaarora
Yeah.

21:18.88
Pennylane
Acrylic on Canvas look like I understand what you know texture looks like and things like that. So I really didn’t necessarily need that strong of a ah reference point other than photos to be able to understand what was going On. Um. So that was an adjustment for to have people come to me but that allowed me to see a lot more people than I used because I didn’t have to travel between them and of course yeah, and of course Zoom and Skype skype was early days. Um, that allowed me all our clients around the world. Um.

21:38.20
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah, that. Yeah, yeah.

21:53.85
Pennylane
And it really changed things. But again people felt strange because they’re like oh well, you need to see the artwork in person. But no I Really don’t.

21:57.88
charukaarora
And I think and I think I’m I’ve been with this? yes.

22:03.96
Pennylane
When was this oh um, between 2006 to 2014 maybe

22:09.58
charukaarora
Wow and at that point because I think in the past let’s say 4 years ah the digital shift has been way high and the shift has been massive and then the adaptive adaptation rate has been so much better.

22:15.51
Pennylane
Yeah.

22:26.63
charukaarora
But before that I still remember like today almost all artists like I wouldn’t say all but yes majority of artists have sites I remember when I entered into the arts which was like a couple of years ago. Um, and I had.

22:26.85
Pennylane
That’s right.

22:44.64
charukaarora
I had to redo my website I used to have a website and I realized that I had take it like the shape of an artist and I really needed to revamp and make it look like you know my current um designation or whatever and I figured that i. I don’t even know maybe less than thirty percent people had their websites and this felt like it was insane that I was putting so much time and effort and money to get a website like you know done and I was like I’m I’m sure at that and today zoom meetings are common. It’s like meeting anyone that you meet like. On a regular basis. But at that point I think people investing into zoom meetings or skype meetings is a big big shift.

23:29.58
Pennylane
Absolutely absolutely. It is um and even since Pandemic of course, um you know normally before this I would I would see people 3 days in the office 3 to four days and then 2 days via zoom.

23:44.53
charukaarora
Yeah.

23:46.43
Pennylane
And now it’s switched even though it’s still all people that I physically could see in person. It’s um, now majority in zoom and and only a few in person. So even those who who do live here and could come in. They realize it’s not. It’s not necessary and in fact, sometimes more advantageous because they um.

23:50.44
charukaarora
Ah, hungry.

23:59.89
charukaarora
Yeah.

24:05.66
Pennylane
You know we’re in their studio space and they can kind of even show me around and there’s other benefits to to that. So It really has changed the game like digitally. Yeah so that was some of the really like you know obstacles about switching from In- person to online and or even From. Seeing them in person in the studio to seeing them in person in my office and then online I also struggled early on with just defining like not defining but rather Creative. You know our our creative content our informational content. Um.

24:24.24
charukaarora
Just.

24:43.63
Pennylane
You know there was nothing to keep it from being taken and then and then recycled and used in another business and that was that we struggled with quite a bit copycats and like copyright and um, just basically um, you know, ah the rise of.

24:48.80
charukaarora
Um, yeah, absolutely yeah.

25:01.99
Pennylane
Artist consultation as ah as a field. Um, yeah, and and and you know just not necessarily having the resources to be able to monitor all of that so that was that was a difficulty but you know it’s something that for the most part we kind of tried our best to.

25:03.18
charukaarora
Yeah.

25:11.18
charukaarora
No.

25:20.18
charukaarora
Yeah wow. Um, you’ve been again I think in the past 2 years especially since the patentic you’ve extensively worked with a lot of artists and I think everyone who’s doing this job right now is a job of very high service because um.

25:20.96
Pennylane
To overcome.

25:40.25
charukaarora
It’s been.. It’s been very hard for everyone and of course artists. It’s been equally hard. What do you feel in your experience um has been the top struggles with the pros. Let’s just I’m sure there’s. This pro and con for both with our situation Now. What do you think?? how has things affected like the pandemic affected artist and the work.

26:08.80
Pennylane
Ah, um, yeah, certainly like the I think maybe the the most obvious 1 has been the inability to show physically in person. Um, that was a huge sort of struggle at the beginning for a lot of my clients that many of their shows were canceled.

26:15.66
charukaarora
Yeah.

26:25.73
Pennylane
And shows that they had been working towards for a long long time that we had been working towards um so that was a huge thing so public public spaces and that kind of gathering around work and the discussion around work.

26:34.32
charukaarora
Yeah.

26:40.84
Pennylane
And you know the ability to pivot onto a virtual platform to have virtual shows just it was great and it really did you know so um, satisfy need but it still did not to the point of in person like not closest. No.

26:52.71
charukaarora
Yeah, it’s it’s It’s not like this or that it is this and that I think we.

27:00.19
Pennylane
That’s right, That’s right, exactly So That’s why you know, um, it’s satisfied ah to the point that it could satisfy. However. I Think that was sort of the biggest struggle or heartbreak I do feel we’re coming out of that in some ways who knows for how long but I do feel we’re coming out of that in some ways. Um and basically for those who had the inability to pivot onto a digital platform and they really felt the.

27:17.43
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

27:30.26
Pennylane
I Think they really sort of felt the ah the lack of of connections to their collectors and the lack of ability to show and therefore market and promote for those who were able to pivot I think they felt more benefits than they ever have in fact and.

27:35.60
charukaarora
Then.

27:46.88
charukaarora
Yes, that’s true.

27:50.60
Pennylane
Smellingre. Um, but there are certain artists particularly public gallery artists. So ones that are not um, they don’t have a item that they can sell necessarily they move from exhibition to exhibition via grants and being invited on being part of.

28:00.40
charukaarora
Yeah.

28:08.69
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

28:09.93
Pennylane
Collections museum collections. Those artists have especially felt the um, the struggles of the last couple years.

28:14.97
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah, that’s true. How do you feel like when especially what do you feel I know I’ve heard you talk about this a lot of time especially with I think daniel um I think erika and I thought we. We would really surface this pack again and I felt like if you had any new inputs and ah thoughts about what do you think are the major things especially if anyone I mean every artist any artist who’s listening to this episode. Um, what is. Let’s say top five thick that you feel that hold back art is the most in today’s time

29:00.40
Pennylane
Um I guess it depends on what what you mean by hold back like hold back hold them back from what.

29:06.27
charukaarora
Hold them back in their career I feel like the most important part. It’s not the skill I think skill We all keep developing over time and you know where our practice takes up but um I feel like in the in the part that moving forward taking that next step. And we’re all living in a time where everything is so drastically evolving and changing and we all need to keep up with these changes to keep moving forward. Um in that process a lot of people feel um held back because of. Our own fears or how things used to be or you know the the shift that keeps happening and then just keeping up with that shift. Um, and generally I think in our creative careers which in itself is like ah it’s is like a big bag of its own but just in general ways I feel Like. Um, a lot of ah ah lot of artists feel like they’re not able to tap the best potential be it creative you’re being you know, putting them outset out there I think that is the biggest struggle right now because it is intimidating if if I be honest, it’s It’s not that. It is a process and it’s and it’s a learning curve on its own.. What do you have to say about that.

30:23.99
Pennylane
Yeah I agree. Um I mean I suppose I’m I’m happy to speak to like a few you know, maybe top five I don’t think I don’t think that the top 5 but 5 perhaps major tips that I find across the board are um.

30:35.90
charukaarora
Nap. Yeah. Yeah.

30:42.17
Pennylane
Perhaps shortcomings in the artist’s practice if you like I am okay sure great first? Um I guess would be the time time is a huge 1 any any sort of artists that we meet with our clients that meet with that have um.

30:46.28
charukaarora
Daniel.

31:01.63
Pennylane
But don’t basically have enough time to pursue their our career and that is so many of us. Um, because they have either another part time or full-time job. Of course they could be a parent or a caretaker of any kind. Um and they’re just pulled in different directions and you know.

31:05.48
charukaarora
Yeah.

31:21.00
Pennylane
Your art does demand quite a lot of you emotionally and and physically so without that time it is very very difficult to move to that next step it’s near impossible Actually so I can only help so much with that and you know talking about tips for making the most of your time.

31:22.40
charukaarora
Um, yeah, um.

31:33.63
charukaarora
Yeah.

31:40.75
Pennylane
But truly without that momentum. It is 1 step forward 2 steps back so time is the first 1 a second 1 would be research so many artists don’t have enough research in their practice. They don’t expose themselves to enough artwork and even. Not even artwork but just different types of fine art from writing of course to music dance. Whatever it may be but other types of creative fine art and just knowing in general where their work sits in the larger canon of art theory.

32:01.68
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

32:19.10
Pennylane
I feel is a bit of a blind spot for many artists so exposure and research is is the second 1 um 3 I would say ah so this 1 kind of has to do with like work ethic and failure and so artists are very.

32:20.81
charukaarora
Yeah.

32:37.74
Pennylane
Some artists are a little bit too precious with their practice and their work and there needs to be a level of disposability work. Yeah because they need to fail and fail fast and they need to be able to do studies and understand that some things don’t.

32:38.90
charukaarora
Yeah.

32:44.92
charukaarora
Language. Yeah.

32:55.53
charukaarora
Um, likeca.

32:57.33
Pennylane
Workout and it means doing more of those things and that this is really the long game or in it for the long game and it just results take time and doing something and that may be the actual technical making of the work but it can also be the marketing and the promotion of the work.

33:04.44
charukaarora
Yeah.

33:11.56
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah, that’s.

33:15.46
Pennylane
There will be a lot of failure and so there is something about being less precious with the work but also being a little less precious with the failure and understanding that that is part of the journey. Um, fourth I think there’s of course the the inner critic. Um.

33:32.81
charukaarora
Yeah, and yeah.

33:33.76
Pennylane
Piece there. That’s always very loud near is this What is the point of what I’m doing um and there just is so much more weight than in other fields I find um like such a louder inner critic there and I think.

33:44.28
charukaarora
Yeah.

33:51.54
Pennylane
Inner Critic is loud because the work is good like so the louder the critic is is because you care more basically about what you’re doing and so yeah, so you know in many ways it’s going to happen. It’s going to come but you also have to see it as you know that this is.

33:57.98
charukaarora
I Love that perspective.

34:09.19
Pennylane
Because I’m invested in it. You don’t care about if you know if you’re not invested in something you won’t care whether or not it’s working out in any way. But if you’re invested in it then then you know your judgment about is a little bit higher but you have to be aware that that judgment is.

34:09.21
charukaarora
Now. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah.

34:25.10
Pennylane
Exactly that it is It is judgment and it is flawed and it is um, you have to take it with a grain of salt and I guess that lead would lead me to my last point which is um that artists lack some artists lack critical feedback on their work and that you know they they’re very.

34:39.15
charukaarora
Now.

34:43.86
Pennylane
They’re very much in an isolated practice sometimes again not not all and they don’t have regular feedback on their work and artists do need that regular feedback on their work as much as working alone and working in solitude and head down and focused is really useful.

34:44.63
charukaarora
And. Yeah.

35:02.21
Pennylane
Um, having feedback and other eyes and words on the work I think is invaluable.

35:08.62
charukaarora
Love that I think I can I can relate to so many I mean we were all experienced if we and I think it’s not even like you overcome and then they never come back to you I mean I feel like it’s it’s like a practice that you keep going. Okay, you know you’re over it for a time and then it when it. Hits back on your door and you’re like okay this is going somewhere and then you need to circle Back. You know I have a very important question that I would also ask for myself now and I’m sure a lot of people which is like you know, um with I’m so grateful for social media for everything.

35:31.35
Pennylane
That’s right.

35:46.83
charukaarora
Especially in the past couple of years because it’s really expanded I mean I feel like it’s how you see it I’m sure I agree the pros and cause of everything and there’s good and bad to both but like being more online or whatever. But I do I do appreciate it I think I’ve experienced it firsthand with ah. So many advantages of social media I come from a place where I didn’t have access to a lot of um, you know it’s not even artists I feel like there’s so many so many kind 1 art world is philip full of. So many different groups in different kind of art worlds many artworks in their own and we all just need to navigate where we fit in the best or why we feel belong the best why I was while you know the social media time was of course not so mean and predominant I feel like a lot of us. Couldn’t ever have access to things that we I mean I where I grew up or where I belong I didn’t not resonate so much I had a lack of community I had lack of exposure. Um I couldn’t see the art that. I really wanted to see and I wanted to see the contemporary version of what we had and I’m so grateful for social media for that and even today I see that you know as my own personal practice. What I do arts 2 hearts at arts 2 hearts is 1 very important part of my own practice. And my own creative studio practice is the other half where with art 2 hearts I pursue. Um I meet I mean every month I meet over hundred artists. Um I get into the studios ah look at works curate shows and for me, it’s it’s like for me that is my research that is. That is how I know what’s happening. That’s how I know my visual eyes also get trained and I feel like it puts me so much in Place. It’s like my personal art school honestly I always say that it’s like I’m putting myself through art school in a format like that and my own practice. Now I was able to take the sleep of faith and even I feel like every day I have to trust myself more and more that you know I can take that step and go forward and go forward. But what about people who don’t who may not necessarily ah come from. Um you know the major countries. Bigger cities and not have access um to contacts exposure community and how can and you know like I’m sure like I I’m sitting in India and I work with all over the people with all over the world and very less with people in India actually.

38:29.52
charukaarora
A lot of our community is based out of us and Canada and I Honestly, my dream is I I mean I Pursue to be showing my work all around the globe and I’m sure all of us 1 that But how do you make that possible when you come from place which is. You know which is which is smaller less exposed in a country in a state in a in a city. How do you?? How do artists bridge that gap for themselves. Yeah I’m Fine. Um I think modern research How how do they.

38:57.17
Pennylane
Yes, has and how do they do that research. Basically.

39:07.80
charukaarora
How do they put themselves more forward in their careers staying from a place if they don’t have ah you know it’s easier if I’m living in New York It’s easier for me to meet the right people. It’s easier for me to um, be more exposed. It’s It’s easy for me to. Have access to a community. But when you’re sitting in a smaller town in a you know in a different part of the world and you may not have so many exposures and you’re limited to your practice. What would you suggest for artists to maybe if they want to become internationally.

39:44.70
Pennylane
Yeah, first I think it’s important to um, do some research into where they want to be or where they want to show? Um, yes, 1 might think living in new york it might be easier, but it’s also not because there’s also so much competition and so many other people trying to do that.

39:45.62
charukaarora
Renowned Let’s say.

39:58.54
charukaarora
Um, competition. Yeah yeah.

40:04.70
Pennylane
And a lot less space to be able to do that. But if you’re looking like I think you have to define what your goals are and and you know just leveling up or becoming a famous artist isn’t enough. That’s not specific enough I think we need to figure out what it is exactly you want to do if it is that you want to show in a public gallery which 1 And looking at those and applying to those. Um, if it if you want to build community because you are from a small town and you don’t feel like those folks in your small town can satisfy that it is about maybe looking into doing a residency in a different place. A residency that has a number of different artists at it as well. If It’s about community.

40:40.88
charukaarora
Local.

40:41.29
Pennylane
So really I think the you know 1 of the common complaints about living in a small town or in a remote area is actually that you know you have to define what it is that you want and that goal has to be a little bit more specific rather than thinking oh you know I’m from a.

40:55.34
charukaarora
Yeah.

40:57.25
Pennylane
Small town and therefore have less resources. Well not really, that’s actually not necessarily the case it is harder to get your work to a specific place if you’re if you’re trying to move to that place. So yeah, absolutely that part. But um I think we need to maybe define. Ah.

41:04.72
charukaarora
Yeah.

41:15.10
charukaarora
Yeah I can.

41:15.10
Pennylane
You just need to be a little bit more specific about your goals and figure out what that you want to do and what you what you want to do and if that’s the case and you want to show in a very specific place or meets very particular types of people then it’s about researching where they are and then physically going there.

41:30.20
charukaarora
Yeah I think you put it very right? because sometimes um, even now when you um’m I’m applying your own your ah youred suggestion on my own situation because I remember when I I started I felt like my biggest biggest struggle was community. I for as an artist I knew that the work I was making I still needed to get like you know and I had a way ahead, but it was very hard for me to make that work all by myself I needed to have conversations that like like an artist and I I needed a place. But I could say the things that I did while making that work and feel resonated and feel supported so that I knew that I wasn’t alone like I didn’t want to think that I was this 1 spot in the world and like that window who’s like you know we all feel we want to feel and I think I was. I was I was focused on only solving that part of the problem for me I know I have several down the list. But I knew that to first keep going I need to have the fuel tool that lets me keep going and I think that’s such oh my god sometimes we don’t even realize the things that we do unless. You know? Okay, my last question which is oh okay, we quickly wind this up. Yes, but okay, so my last question is um, if anyone if an artist who wants to pursue.

42:46.90
Pennylane
Okay I have fives before I have to go. It’s just a lay know. It’s 27 yeah sure

43:02.29
charukaarora
Um, like you know, want you opt in to work with artist consultants a how would that say a lot of people get curious that how would that work. Um I think very common questions that come up with do when do they know if they’re ready. Um. Second how would it how how is how does that work. Um, can you answer these questions and maybe also just deliverable insight and how it works for you.

43:31.40
Pennylane
Sure. Yeah, So um, you’re ready anytime I The biggest I think of um mis misunderstanding is that you have to have a lot of work or be you know, very. Very much through a project before you sign up for a meeting. It’s actually kind of better the other way around where you you know you are just starting out maybe on a practice because um, you know if you come and you have all these things and then then I or someone else might make a suggestion that a lot of these things might have been better another way.

43:59.92
charukaarora
Yeah.

44:05.86
Pennylane
Well, you know I think that you’ve already done all this work exactly so basically? um, ah you know there’s no, there’s never a shortage of anything to talk about. Let’s put it that way. The other thing is like we offer mini contents which are thirty minutes instead of an hour and that time really flies by so that’s.

44:07.58
charukaarora
That’s a lot of shit. Yeah.

44:25.46
Pennylane
Often If you don’t know that whether or not you you know need the full 1 or if you have some immediate questions that are just sort of like burning questions about 1 particular thing I Really recommend just giving 1 of the mini sessions a try. Um, and then we basically meet you at where you’re at you have to fill out a form ahead of time and that kind of gives a little bit of insight into your practice and then um, yeah, and then we meet meet you where you’re at, um, it is some people like to see it as maintenance a lot like you know going to the dentist where you just.

44:43.63
charukaarora
No.

44:55.80
charukaarora
Yes, it’s it’s like a therapist that you need to have for your creative profession I feel like 1

44:58.20
Pennylane
You make sure you go to the dentist a few every few months and that’s that’s that right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So um, you know we’re never going to ask you, You’re going to have to decide when it. It is best for you to come back. And have another kind of update or catch up again.

45:16.51
charukaarora
Yeah, that’s unperfect. Okay, so would you like to ah share if anyone who’s interested in working with you and where can they find you um and how can they work with you or if you have anything else that you want to add to it.

45:32.94
Pennylane
Yeah, okay, um, you can always find us at our website at dazed and confucius dot com um, or you can find us on Instagram at dazed dot and confucius. Um. And that’s where we post anything that’s kind of coming up or happening like seminars online or maybe in your city and um, otherwise nothing I think that’s that’s about it I will be teaching another session with the and nyc crit club.

46:04.88
charukaarora
Yeah I saw that.

46:06.84
Pennylane
Coming up in the springtime and so yeah, look take take a look at that and otherwise anytime anyone’s in Vancouver or victoria feel free to stop by our offices.

46:17.10
charukaarora
Lovely perfect. So anyone who’s listening to this episode. You can find all the links in the show notes I will be linking da in Confucicus website link to the artist consultations and the ny secretrit club link so that you can sign up and I’m sure. That it would. It could be that 1 step that can you know I think we just need to take that 1 step that gets gets everything going. So I really appreciate penny raine. Thank you so much for your time I know you’re in a hurry so I will let you go thank you so much.

46:50.67
Pennylane
No problem. You’re so so welcome. Thank you for having me. It’s been great to chat.

46:54.48
charukaarora
Thank you truly save your Julia pressure. Thank you.

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